Fiber Haven

Sharing the Process


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I don’t know how many of you actually read my plurk updates- but those of you that do must have noticed my most recent. I have been banned.

I know that many of you who read my blog are from the wonderful world of IF support.  I also know that some have bookmarked my blog because of my connection to fiber crafts.  I was banned sometime between Friday night and Saturday morning. At first, I thought maybe there was a server issue but quickly realized that it wasn’t. I should maybe give some background for those who may be in the dark.

The Hubbs and I decided last year(whoa-correction December 2007) that we would stop trying to have a baby.  Mainly because tried every natural concoction, we tried OPK’s, Ferning, Charting.  We tried “relaxing”. We tried just winging it. Nothing came of anything and our insurance did not cover any aid in conception- just diagnosis (which bugs the snot out of me because what good is figuring out the problem when they aren’t going to provide any help in solving the problem).

I felt at the time that I needed to take a step back from the (In)Fertility world.  I needed it so that I could regain some sense of peace.  To figure out how we would proceed in living a child-less life. At this point I decided that I would focus on my yarn craft: crochet.  It was interesting because most of my crochet projects were for my friends who were pregnant.  Irony, right? Crochet wasn’t new to me- I learned when I was five (which of course makes it a bit over 20 years that I’ve held a hook).

Infertility kind of forces a lifestyle change simply for self-preservation.  I used to be very active on a military wives site, but it seemed as though every post had become about kids, pregnancy, etc.  Outside of that there was a general level of- immaturity- on the site because it seemed as though women who should know better were treating newbie wives with a kind of contempt.  On the hobbies board is where I found a referral to a “GREAT” site.  That site was

It is a social networking site for the fiber arts.  It has a “notebook” feature where you can track not only your progress on projects, but you could also track the number of needles/hooks you own, queue up interesting patterns, keep track of your yarn stash etc.  I joined and really I wasn’t that involved.  For some reason the groups that I joined I just didn’t completely click with.  I joined some Fibro related boards but I really didn’t want to focus so much on my issues.  I joined an infertility group but I found that jumping in with women that I had no history with (especially with an issue so inherently personal as infertility)was really difficult.

As I am sure everyone is aware that last year was an interesting election year. I supported John McCain (and later Sarah Palin) and as soon as a McCain group started I joined right up.  I try not to talk TOO much (read: hardly at all) about politics on this blog because I truly do not want to alienate any of you ladies because of something like politics. We have so much that we do bond over that I would hate to lose any of you as readers.  In this post and explanation my political leanings play a major role though.

I am a Conservative. I am not an “in your face” conservative though (at least I don’t think so).  I live my values though and I vote according to those values. I must say though that I do like to get feedback from all sides of an issue as long as it is done respectfully- without calling me names.  I mean, really. Most of those kinds of comments come from people who just happen upon a post, or a blog and don’t know anything about me.  I am getting off track though so let me refocus.

McCain Ravelry was my haven on the site.  There I could totally vent, share, laugh with women (and some men) who held the same values as myself.  It was so much easier to research issues when there are 600 other members who are looking at their own sources and linking to them. I should mention that the McCain Ravelry was NOT solely for strictly conservative people.  We had women who were moderate/conservative democrats, independents who held some conservative values. As the election cycle continued we had wonderful women join who were Hillary supporters.  I loved it!  We had great conversations and debates as well.

We all know though that politics can be controversal and it can get heated quickly.  The joy of our board was that we had a zero tolerance policy.  We clearly stated that our board was strictly for supporters of McCain.  Ravelry had/has many many MANY areas where political debate was the focus (groups like “big issues debate’).  There were plenty of groups dedicated to B.Obama for his supporters to voice whatever it is they wanted to. This was our space. Any posts that attacked members for stated beliefs were deleted.  Any “educate” posts were deleted.  Any rude posts from non-members were deleted (I should add that we had some very respectful guests in our group that we all came to enjoy their points of view because they were well thought out, research and respectfully written).

It should be noted at this point that the administrators of Ravelry have made the conscious decision to provide minimal moderator tools: they cannot ban members, require membership for posting, etc. What can moderators do?  Well, they can first create the group and write rules for the group (within the guidelines of the TOS of course) but cannot enforce those rules.

Anyway, we all know the results of the election.  At that point the name of our group had to change.  Since we all pretty much decided that our place of safety on the site was our little board.  We all loved the company of the people in our group and we didn’t want to disband.  We changed the name to “The Bunker”.  Why?  Ravelry (if you look at it from a political point of view) is very much left of center.  Voicing a conservative opinion on the main boards is almost like sticking a target on yourself  and inviting people to take a shot a you.  As you can probably imagine- self preservation would deem that I stay in my bunker and let those people talk among themselves.  I didn’t go to their groups, I didn’t reply to them when they posted in our group trying to stir the pot.  You would think that they would have left us alone since their candidate won.  The particular group of women I am talking about are what I would classify as “bad winners” (the word “troll” would also be an appropriate adjective).

Things got so bad that this January our group was closed- with 24 hour notice.  Admin only notified ONE of our mods and when she posted to let us know what was going on there was of course an outcry.  We asked why.  We of course wanted a reason. Our Mod made the statement that she didn’t feel comfortable posting the message from the site admin- until of course the site Admin told her that it would be fine. The admin made sure to state that it wasn’t because of the content of the group but that the moderators were inept.  That we were creating a “culture of anger”.  Only behind the scenes he told our admin not only that he KNEW he was throwing them under the bus even though they have worked with him to clear up any issues that were flagged, but that he appreciated that he could work with our moderators without being attacked.  These trolls (for a lack of a better term) went straight to the admin with their complaints (mind you about a group they didn’t belong to or agree with) rather than take up their issue with the groups moderators. Site admin stated that our group caused too many problems and took up too much of Ravelry’s resources (insert rolling eyes).  We were not the problem- the people who couldn’t mind their own business were but since they are the vocal majority it was us that were disbanded. I remember last year, shortly before the elections, I made a post regarding the immigration issue.  I live in the Boarder-land so I know about illegal immigrants.  I made my opinion known honestly and would you believe that one of these “guests” had the nerve to send me a private message calling me a racist– when I am of Hispanic heritage.

I know this is long at this point, but bear with me.  I am trying to provide as much background as possible.

With the disbanding of our group we were told that we were allowed to create more groups just that our moderators weren’t allowed to moderate any policial based groups (then it somehow changed to moderation of any group at all).  One of our ladies decided to buy a forum with funds from her own wallet.  The site admin was notified that we had an off site group and he encouraged the creation of it.  He stated that he was glad that we had a place where we could voice our opinion.

To simmer down we stayed in our off site group for a couple of days. Then we decided that we deserved to be on the site just as much as any other person who requested access to the place.  Sure they had disbanded our original home so then we got involved with other groups that we as individuals had an interest in, but we also created some new groups that weren’t politically based.  Just general chatter. We made one in support of one of our members and that was infiltrated by trolls and as we deleted their posts they created their own group as a counter to our own. We created one as a read along for Atlas Shrugged and the same thing happened. (Cyber-stalkers much?).  One of our friends started a group for *his* friends and the trolls ran to the site admin saying that we were being “exclusive”.  Tell me why someone would want to join a group of people who are all friends of the same person- without being a friend of the person?

We as a collective have been called bigots, racists (even by the admin who stated that since a scarf reference about B.O. was made by a person from Mississippi it was a racist remark), intolerant, homophobic, etc etc etc.  Any word you can think of (and you can even dig down into a dirty ditch and you’d probably pick up a name our group has been called) as derogatory.

That brings us to yesterday.  I woke up, got my coffee, and sat down to catch up on posts.  What did I get?

Error 403: Forbidden.

I was confused to say the very least.  I thought that it may have been a server issue (it happens). Maybe it was a connection issue with my browser.  I signed on to our off board site and found out that those who didn’t get the same message I did got the message that their accounts have been suspended until further notice.

I didn’t get that message so looks like I’ve been banned.

I wasn’t sent a note or a warning asking for a modification of behavior (though there is NO reason in my posting history that would call for even a suspension).

Some of the few who weren’t banned checked to see what was on the profiles of those of us who had the 403 message.  “User No Longer Active” as if we neglected posting on the site for a period of time.  Patterns that were bought from Ravelry vendors I no longer have access to- even though I have paid for them.  My intellectual property as far as modifications and such I no longer have access to: HOWEVER, apparently there is no way to delete my accounts.  The site claims to have over 300K members.  Think about it though.  There are people who have more than one account.  There are those who have been banned or have been so disgusted by the content of the boards they have asked to be deleted and not return.  At any given time of day there isn’t more than 2500 people online. Some of these “trolls” have gone looking online for any references to this mass banning and have carried their vitriol to the comment sections of the ladies who have written. These women think they know what they are talking about when in fact they have no part of the converstion.

I must admit that at first I wasn’t going to post about this, but somehow it didn’t’ seem right to be intimidated by women behind a screen posting as “anonymous”- especially since the only thing I have done wrong is to be apart of an off site group that the site admin had been informed was created and APPROVED.  Most of you , my readers, “know” me.  I’ve posted on boards with you about all kinds of issues.  I am the same person there as I am here as I am on our infertility support boards.

None of the banned (which of our core group  around 110 or so- there are women who haven’t checked in yet because they have things they need to do over the weekends) were given a reason, much less evidence.  However, the admin thought it would be a good idea to post on the main boards that because we had an off site group that linked in to Ravelry that we were somehow causing a disruption.  I thought that income generating site liked as many incoming links as they could get. Let’s think about this logically now. Of the 600+ members of the disbanded Bunker the core of the group are the ones in the off-site group.  At anypne time of the day there are at the most 20 members online.  Tell me how that would create a disruption?  I am pretty sure that there are pattern designers who link into Ravelry on a regular basis and provide far more activity in a day than our group would in a month.  Anyway supposedly our group was the reason why we were banned (that he has told the community not us mind you).

Included in this mass ban are women who are not a member of our group but maybe a member signed into their account using their computer.  Teens who of course use their parents computer to sign in to the site. Advertisers, Group Moderators, Swap participants have been banned because (we think) they got caught in the IP drag-net (we figure this is one level of the ban since we have members who’ve gotten their IP’s changed and could then bypass the 403).

Tomorrow I’ll edit this to include links to the blog posts (and subsequent comments) made by other victims (yes I use the word- I feel it is appropriate) of this mass ban.

Right now though- its 2:30 in the morning and I have to drive my husband to work in the morning.

If you made it all the way through- then Thank You.


Written by Moi

March 16, 2009 at 8:34 am

Posted in Crochet, Knitting, Shameful

Tagged with ,

17 Responses

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  1. Hi

    I’m not sure which of the banned people you are, but my comment will apply to most of you. I don’t know what it was that you did to finally push Casey and Jess over the edge, but it must have been very nasty to top some of the stuff you had already said.

    You repeatedly referred to people who had done you no harm as retards. Since when is it acceptble to use retard as a term of abuse? Are people with learning disabilities in some way offensive to you? Is it something they have brought upon themselves by their bad behaviour?

    You seemed to think that it was acceptable to call people as Fascists and Nazis, when it was patently obvious that they are no such thing. You struggled with understanding Socialism as a philosophy even though it was what the man Jesus espoused and preached. You insulted and abused those who tried to accept, both it and your philosophical and political beliefs. Many of your friends brandished their Christianity as an exclusive, hatefilled and unforgiving brand of belief, which, last time I checked, is not what it’s supposed to be.

    While you were on Ravelry, I never once made comment in any of your groups although I was offended and deeply shocked by some of the sentiments expressed therein. I find it hard to believe that people can feel so much hate, express it and then be surprised that others are shocked and repelled. You can’t go around the webs pretending that everything you said as reasonable and innocent. The response to images of Mother Theresa, Dalai Lama etc. being used as avatars was for some of you to use pictures of Adolf Hitler, was that supposed to be clever?

    The complete political and geographical ignorance of some of your motley crew was at best hilarious and at worst indicative of your stupidity. You have said here that you wouldn’t delete guest posts in your groups if they were respectful and that is just a lie, fib, untruth… Your groups even said in their rules that guests would not be welcome, but it didn’t stop you from trying to spoil Ravelry for everyone else by going into other groups and making snide, rude, accusatory and vitriolic comments. There was one episode where a new Raveller was given some very nasty responses to her comments. As you Americans say, “Classy!”

    How do you get from knitting to hating everyone who isn’t you? Hysteria, mass hysteria is the answer.

    Ravelry is a great place for yarn lovers.

    I haven’t hidden my identity or email address here although I know you will never show this comment, because you like to practise your own variety of censorship.

    1. The majority of your comments do not have any relevance to the content of this post. I have never called anyone a “retard” or any such name. I wouldn’t disrespect the people who suffer with disability by grouping them with such women.

    2. If you don’t know whats going on then you really have no place to make a statement. I love how you assume that *we* must have done something bad. I find it amusing.

    3. It doesn’t seem as though you read my entire post, but rather put in a search term and the hit the comment button.

    4. I think you should spend more time studying the Bible if you are going to bring Christianity to the table. Jesus did not preach government socialism but rather social responsibility on a personal level. That means it is done from a place of love- not forced by the government.

    5. Most (if not all) of us know what Nazism, Fascism, and Communism principles are- some were even born in countries where that was the type of government in power. When an administration or a group of people begin to make choices that have been made in the past- we have every right to state it. Study history and I’m sure you’d see if you just open your eyes. Besides, not your group. Not your political leaning. Then keep your nose out of it unless you can contribute positively to the conversation.

    6. I find it interesting that you say we were filled with hate when most of us back up our statements with linkage to facts. I think if you really want to be offended then maybe you should make a trek to some of the “wholesome” boards of ravelry: pictures of breasts, crotch shots, even of someone’s husband naked with yarn barely covering his genitalia. We have standards and morals that we stick to and just because YOU oppose it doesn’t make it hate. Just an FYI for ya.

    7. Any issues you had throughout the election about avatars should totally be null and void because “you won”. Get over it. Actually, you aren’t even an American so why are you even attempting to be involved with women of my board?

    8. If you saw in the rules where guest posts weren’t welcome- then what was so difficult about that rule? The SITE Admin approved of our rules. Apparently the women who chose to make trouble have entitlement issues.

    9. Who ever said anything about hating anyone? Sounds like a case of projection to me.

    10. Just a last note and I’m done with your obviously generally ignorant comment: We stayed in our group- I definitely did- until we didn’t have a group to post in. At that point we went into the MAIN 6. That would be the public boards- everyone is a member. Any other board that I may have commented in DURING THE ELECTION I only did so because I was linked in by a member of the group. I haven’t commented in a group I was not a member of since the elections and definitely not since our group was disbanded.

    ETA: Thank you for your post. It proves my point better than I ever could. You are obviously not a regular reader of mine- try to keep it that way 😉 :*

    J. Robb

    March 16, 2009 at 1:32 pm

  2. Hi-
    I’m really sorry about all the problems going on for you and your friends. Discrimination is horrible and it must suck to be in your position. I wanted to let you know that there are threads going about what happened on Ravelry and it sounds like the conclusion is that if you feel like you have been treated unfairly or you can’t access your patterns what you really should do is contact If there are legal issues going on they should be able to help.

    Thank you for your comment. Truly I appreciate it. I have contacted both Casey as well as Craig.


    March 16, 2009 at 3:01 pm

  3. I’ve been a Raveler for two years. I love all of the fiber-related features and perks offered to members. However, the fora are out of control. During the election and in its aftermath, I have seen the most horrifying, violent, and threatening comments made in reference to prominent Republicans — most of whom are sitting elected officials. I can’t believe that the people who posted these awful things about President Bush, John McCain, Sarah Palin, Bristol Palin, Dick Cheney, Laura Bush, Karl Rove and more were not investigated by the Secret Service. Ravelry used to be a great place. Now it’s becoming a bastion of the far left where conservatives are banned and the rhetoric rule seems to be: The more incendiary, the better.

    Thank You for taking the time to read my very long post. I agree with much of what you have stated.


    March 16, 2009 at 5:05 pm

  4. …………………………..

    Interesting that you leave nothing behind–and you were really very funny. Thanks for the laugh. You get props for creativity

    illegal descrimination

    March 16, 2009 at 8:09 pm

  5. (((Hugs))) Very well said… I think you summed things up perfectly.


    March 17, 2009 at 7:27 am

  6. I’m so sorry this happened to you. It’s so wrong. I don’t understand this at all. It stinks of dictatorship & I hate that this happened to some of my dear friends on Rav.

    hugs, love, and prayers,
    Kim aka SugarMomma

    Thank You, the Hugs, Love and Prayers are always appreciated.


    March 17, 2009 at 3:35 pm

  7. I have been a member of ravelry for over a year. I just don’t understand the mentality of the majority of the membership. This whole thing reminds me of junior high girls. I have lost a lot of respect for TPTB. That and then finding out that they used donation money for carbon credits! Please….why not just throw your money down the toilet.

    RE:Mentality: You and me both! There is a reason why I spent my time on boards with people I had come to know from the Bunker. With the disbanning of our group- it was like I was forced to wade in muck. That is until we created different non-political groups then I felt comfortable again. It is a shame that this had to happen and that I am tagged on Ravelry as “plotting to disrupt service” or (in the words of a certain Main 6 mod/mouthpiece) “vile”. Its all gravy though. Thanks for taking the time to read and comment! I appreciate it and would love if you checked in every once in awhile. Now that I am not else where maybe I can spend some time making this place better.


    March 18, 2009 at 8:53 pm

  8. I am amazed by all of the hypocrisy floating around these blog posts, around all of this drama fest. It is disheartening to see that people really have such a persecution complex as you demonstrate here.

    You may know what the principles behind communism and socialism are, but I encountered no person within the realm of the “bunker” who demonstrated an actual understanding of the philosophies. You guys have buzzwords, and you can blast on communism and communist leaders, but what do you understand about the philosophies? I’d recommend doing some deep reading if you want to truly hate them. Show what you know.

    And really, quit the whining. It’s just the internet.

    1. Thank you for leaving a comment.
    2. I really believe that you think you know what you are talking about- but you don’t. I put my side out there. No crazy emotion attached- just things as they happened. I’m sorry that you don’t agree with that but it isn’t really my issue and it doesn’t change the facts of what supposedly happened. If you have an issue with so called “hypocrisy” then I would strongly suggest you post on the blogs that show some or perhaps ask a certain site administration to provide solid evidence of so called disruption. He won’t do it because there isn’t any.
    3. We have members in our group who lived in the communism of Russia behind the iron curtain. Again, before you make an accusation of ignorance you should maybe listen/read what is written without trying to find something to nit-pick at. As far as Nazism is concerned I have done more than my fair share of research on the subject. You have no idea what I know and don’t know- which brings me to my next point.
    4. It *is* just the internet which is why I didn’t request to be reinstated at Ravelry: because it isn’t the bread of butter of the fiber world. I found patterns and welcoming communities on the web since before Ravelry even went live. It *is* just the internet, but that doesn’t mean manners should go out the door. There is no “whining’ on this blog but maybe in your statement there is just a wee bit of projection? That would be a rhetorical question by the way- I don’t require an answer
    ETA: I wanted to thank you again for coming here and proving much of what has been stated already about the kind of “love” the Bunker got from a small vocal minority on a website


    March 20, 2009 at 4:41 am

    • dear hyz,

      If you want to understand communism and socialism, read marx, lenin and engels. read them carefully, do it again.

      anyone who says that these philosophies are good, is either delusional (yes, sorry i am pretty straightforward) or very very rich as only the rich benefit in these political systems.

      If you like communism so much, try it for yourself, go live in China, tell me how the freedoms and liberties treat you there.

      You, people that are pro-commie, never knew what it’s like to lack freedoms, basic rights, food, freedom of travel etc. That’s why you philosophize about communism and talk about how great it is.

      You want to talk communism? Let’s do it, but you my friend don’t know much about it. I do – i grew up in it. And it ain’t pretty.


      July 27, 2010 at 11:33 pm

    • And yes, I grew up in good old USSR.
      My family has people that were taken away never to be seen again because they told a wrong joke. I am not kidding, hyz. I, as a 7 year old child, stood in line for food in the 80’s. These are just some fine examples of your beloved communism.

      I do understand the philosophy – I lived in it – it has complete disregard to a human, to their rights and freedoms. Is this the future you want for your children?

      By the way, I am neither democrat or conservative. I am anti-communist. And you my friend, need to read more, before you allow your country to slide into commie abyss.

      You know how many people died in labour camps in USSR? I shudder for USA (and I am glad I don’t live there). Adios.


      July 27, 2010 at 11:44 pm

  9. Fantastic post. It really is sad that reason and trying to compromise with TPTB meant that the BB’s were banned. I saw what happened both in the Bunker and after it was disbanded. I was a long time member of the Bunker and it broke my heart when it was gone. Love.

    Thank You for reading through the lengthy post!


    March 20, 2009 at 5:06 pm

  10. To Hyz – You are missing the point. Casey made it clear when he closed the Bunker that it was not about CONTENT… so what we discussed is IRRELEVANT to the issue at hand. Casey chose to blame the closing of the Bunker on difficulties in dealing with the few of us who were moderators, which was also a lie and later admitted in not only e-mails but in a post in the CK group in which he admitted to throwing us under the bus. He closed the group because of the constant WHINING of those who didn’t agree with our views.

    Additionally, the mass banning was supposedly due to poor behavior in relation to our OFF-SITE group. AGAIN, this has nothing to do with the content that you all want to keep WHINING about. As for the alleged behavior, Casey has yet to offer one single shred of evidence or even an example of what we were doing wrong.

    So if you want the truth, why don’t you ask him publicly exactly what we did to get banned… then please share the answer with us if you get one!


    March 20, 2009 at 5:23 pm

  11. excellent post. It is still unbelievable to me that people see a proven failed philosophy (socialism) as a good thing, now wonder our country is headed that way.
    Well I’ll just stay in the minority then. I am a Christian, Conservative, Republican, and I will stay that way.
    It seems to me that Ravelry is becoming a little taste of what the far left want for our country.
    As one who was also banned, I know I did nothing wrong.
    It’s funny that some have a problem with the far left being called libtards, but have no problem with their beloved leader saying his bowling scores make him worthy of Special Olympics. Frankly I don’t see him as worthy to tie the shows of a participant in the Special Olympics, they are way too good for him


    March 20, 2009 at 8:24 pm

  12. The original reason that Casey gave for shutting down the Bunker was that it took too much of his time dealing with flagged posts. Those, of course, were from trolls who visited the board just to disrupt it and not from Bunker members. That’s what he told us but when we fussed he said it was because of our mods. We weren’t given a chance to change mods but were just shut down with 24 hours’ warning. Anything “vile” that any member supposedly did was outdone many times over by members of the liberal boards and the folks who post on the main six boards. We could never hope to compete with them for stupid, tasteless, vile posts and never tried. Those of you who keep spouting off about why the Bunker was shut down have no idea how ignorant you sound because you obviously were not there when we were having the discussions with Casey when he told us that it was flagged posts. You’re the last people with any right to criticize about breaking the rules. The rules are very selectively enforced.


    March 20, 2009 at 10:28 pm

  13. Why do the commenters of the left visit conservative groups, expecting to find acceptance? By virtue of being on the other side of the political spectrum, we are going to have different views. I am not Christian but I still think gay marriage is wrong. Some of my ancestors were victims of communism and I will not approve of any steps we make towards it. I don’t think we should withdraw the troups. I don’t think we should go easy on our enemies when they would not go easy on us. Although I am mixed race, I do not believe in affirmative action and resent liberals trying to tell me I am a victim of the white oppressors when I believe I can achieve better for myself based on my own merit. I think that just like my mother and my grandfather, immigrants should go through the proper channels to become citizens, rather than be here illegally.
    I think Sarah Palin is a great woman, who runs her state well and has done the best she could for her family. I am also pro-life.
    I think Barack Obama is the worst choice America could have made.

    And I am so sick of the anti-Christian mentality. My religion taught me that Christians hate me. I believed it for almost a decade. But when people in my religion harmed me, I had family and friends who are Christian that will support me because they are Christian. When I complain about my religion to members of the Bunker, they are there for me and are not trying to convert me. Maybe your Christian friends and family are evil but not mine. This is a wonderful country where even though the majority is Christian, anyone may worship freely. Many of the countries liberals like to defend do not have these rights.

    If these are things liberals find offensive, then they should have stayed within their own groups. I avoided all liberal groups because society around me is liberal. I don’t need to know people disapprove of me in a knitting community. I already know it. Disapproval is not hate.


    March 21, 2009 at 1:10 am

  14. I’m a huge fan of Ayn Rand’s work, and the objectivist philosophy. Free markets, and free will lead to growth and prosperity. More government and regulation leads to less growth and prosperity.

    Atlas Shrugged

    January 9, 2010 at 5:55 am

  15. ravelry is garbage
    and 4 head moderator are imbeciles
    Thy allow everything to Americans and
    bun only non Americas
    they are cheep prostitutes


    July 10, 2010 at 11:54 pm

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